#5: Navigating Grief & Loss

In this episode, Brian, Cindy, Kevin, and Christie Hoeflinger share their experience of their son and brother, Brian's, tragic death and its aftermath. They explore the complex and nuanced facets of grief, sharing candidly about the challenges they've faced, the strategies they've employed to cope, and the profound lesson they've learned along the way.

Through their collective narratives, they aim to offer solace, insight, and guidance to those who may be grappling with their own experiences of loss or grief.

Please reach out to your local suicide and crisis lifeline if you are struggling.

Tune in every week for new episodes of The Hoeflinger Podcast with Dr. Brian Hoeflinger and Kevin Hoeflinger.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Reflecting on Loss and Moving Forward
• 12:35 Coping With the Loss of a Loved One
• 18:31 Brian's Grief and Tragic Death
• 28:34 Funeral Reflections, Dealing With Loss
• 36:09 Understanding the Impact of Loss
• 39:29 Grieving a Loved One's Loss
• 44:59 Grief and Moving Forward Process
• 57:38 Grief and Honoring a Loved One
• 1:01:54 Understanding and Coping With Grief
• 1:07:07 Grief, Relationships, and Lessons Learned
• 1:15:15 Coping With Grief and Finding Positivity
• 1:25:18 Coming Home and Starting Fresh

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome back to the Halflinger podcast. I'm here with my dad, my mom and Christy and myself. We got a very important episode tonight about grief, reflecting on loss, healing, moving forward after traumatic events. So it's the four of us my sister, julia, is in London, and we actually. There's one other member of our family who's missing my brother Brian. He died about 10 years ago and that's been one of the probably most important moment in our lives as a family and how we've moved on. So I thought tonight we're all together and we could start off by talking about the night Brian died to give context and move on from there. So I don't know when it's to start off.

Speaker 2: 0:50

I think we'll let mom lead it off. Maybe she can set the stage for what happened that night.

Speaker 3: 0:55

So it was a cold, not yet snowy night in early February it was a. Friday 2013. It was a Friday night and let's back up first let's talk about Brian for a second.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Okay For the person. Brian wants to start.

Speaker 3: 1:14

So Brian was our oldest and he was a very highly energetic, very intelligent, very, very hardworking kid that had a very quirky sense of humor, very athletic, loved his animals, loved having fun, and he was a little bit on the shy side, but you wouldn't know that when you knew him well. He had a huge respect for girls and didn't like them to get disrespected or any other kid for that matter. He was always kind of championing the underdog and he kind of used humor to stick up for people and distract people from picking on somebody or whatever. He a lot of times would use humor. You guys have any other thoughts?

Speaker 1: 2:04

Yeah, so he was 18 years old. He was a senior at Ottawa Hills. He was number two on the varsity golf team. He loved playing basketball sports as well. Yeah, I think, just to give him some background Don. It'll probably go some more from there.

Speaker 2: 2:23

So I think most important thing about Brian was he was this really good kid. It was very respectful. He never talked down to people. I mean he had a lot. We have a lot I'm a neurosurgeon, we're doctors but he never went around bragging to people. You could have a million dollars or have two dollars, he didn't care, he did everybody the same. He had very nice people really liked him and that showed after he died how many people really liked Brian and what they really thought of him. And so I think more than just his accomplishments was who he was in my mind. He was just a really good person who was very humble and never thought he was bigger than what he was.

Speaker 3: 3:03

Kind of a huge appreciation for life and for what he had Right, compared to others, and he was kind of like a border collie, I consider, when his family and his friends kind of always rounding up the herd, kind of rounding everybody up to have some fun or cause a little trouble or very, very, very love to make people laugh.

Speaker 1: 3:30

Yeah, he's just had a very positive mindset too, and you can see that in all his writings and stuff. You have social media interactions with him. So just a little context there, and then, mom, if you want to jump back.

Speaker 3: 3:42

So it was a cold February night on a Friday, february 2nd 2013. We had come home from an appointment with Christie and we saw Brian and a couple of his friends leaving and we thought they were going to get Jimmy Johns or something like that. Like they do did a lot and we got ready to take Kevin, or Kevin went to his JV basketball game. We, christie, went with us and we went to the basketball game, had a fun night at the basketball game. It was a theme night. It was called Hurt Night.

Speaker 3: 4:17

So all the kids you know the high school kids were dressed like in doctors outfits, scrubs, nurses, wearing braces on their legs or sitting in wheelchairs and, you know, just having a grand old time at the game, just having fun supporting their team. And I took Kevin over to his friend Will's house and then the girls and I and a friend, phoebe, went to get pizza. Brian went home and got kind of went, got ready for bed because he was on a trauma call. It was late you know, it was after nine when the game ended and I didn't see Brian after the game. But I knew he was. He was going out with his friends. So we went and had pizza and came home and everybody settled in and I actually went to bed early that night and I texted Brian because the next night was a it was a Sadie.

Speaker 3: 5:14

Hawke. It was turnabout, but it was like a Sadie Hawke.

Speaker 2: 5:16

It's like homecoming.

Speaker 3: 5:19

But the girl asked the guy it's a school dance In winter, and I reminded him that he had to pick his flowers up before three o'clock because the flower shop closed, and then I went to bed. I usually didn't go to bed, not that I was ever worried about him because he never stayed out late and he, he was always you know, really good kid, but I was just tired so I went to bed early that night too.

Speaker 3: 5:52

And then and then somebody knocked on the door and you, you were in bed. Well, somebody knocked on the door and normally I would.

Speaker 2: 6:01

I went up and I went down, you went down.

Speaker 1: 6:04

And so it was Brian's friends that were looking for him.

Speaker 2: 6:06

Yeah, it was two of his friends that had been at the party and they were looking for him. They knock on the door and they said you know, you guys, have you seen Brian? And we said no. I mean, the last time we saw him was at the basketball game. So we said we thought you guys probably would know where he is. And they said no, he left the party and you know when he knows where he went. So obviously, as parents hearing that, we immediately got concerned.

Speaker 3: 6:27

Well, it was weird because Brian was never like they said he was missing and I was disoriented. When I came down I thought like they were in the basement or you know. I was just disoriented and which is not, you know I was like 1230 1235. And I said wait, what do you mean? Brian's missing. You know Brian's never missing.

Speaker 3: 6:48

And I and when by the time I realized how late it was, I started to kind of get worried, but in essence I already knew. There's just something about things where you know and I think it was already shock setting in because I was kind of in slow mo Can't call somebody's house because you know nobody answers their phone. At one o'clock in the morning I was texting a couple of the kids where's Brian, where's Brian? Nobody was answering. Then I get a phone call Right and it was from one of the kids's mother and she said to me and I'm upstairs in the hallway by Christie, julie and Julie's room and she said, cindy, there's been an accident. And I said no, no, margaret, there's been no accident. I just remember this is clear as day, because already I knew something was wrong, seriously wrong, but it hadn't really sunk in yet. I said no, no, margaret, there's been no accident. And she said we can't find Brian and you need to have your husband call to Lido Hospital or St Ian's.

Speaker 2: 7:57

St.

Speaker 3: 7:57

Ian's and Brian was on call that night. So you know, I was just kind of like, no, no, there's nothing wrong.

Speaker 2: 8:05

So I hung up and I told Brian so then, so that you know I was the neurosurgeon I call for St Ann's Hospital, which is a level three trauma for minor injuries, and I was also on call for other hospitals but Lido Hospital, which is a level and trauma center for life threatening injuries, and so we had heard he went to St Ann's. So I figured he broke his leg because you know if you go to St Ian's it's going to be a minor injury. So that was a relief. And when I called St Ann's, you know, I said this doctor happening, everybody knows me there. And I said can you tell me if my son, brian is there? And there's this big long pause. So then I knew something's up. You know what are they pausing for. So then I asked him again. I said you know this doctor happening, please tell me what's is my son there and what's going on. And they said that you know Brian was here but he's left now and they've transferred him to Toledo Hospital. So so then your heart sinks, you know, because I knew Toledo Hospital, if you got transferred it had to be a life threatening injury. They would never move them out of that hospital to Toledo Hospital if there wasn't something life threatening. So then you know, that's when your heart sinks and you realize my life is probably changing now forever. So then I'm trembling and my hand was trembling. I remember my heart was racing. I just like a nightmare now and I can't even hardly hold the phone and my hand's shaking.

Speaker 2: 9:17

And I called Toledo Hospital and that's where I am most of the time and everybody knows me to the hospital and I called the emergency department. I said this is Dr Hufflinger. I said can you tell me if my son, brian, is there? And you know no one, no one would tell me anything. They just said you need to come to the hospital. I said you know, for God's sake, now his dad's, brian Hufflinger, police, tell me I was going with my son and you know no one, no one would tell me. They just said you need to come to the hospital. And so I knew at that point that no one would talk to me. There was only one reason that Brian was either dead or he was severely injured. And so that was worst feeling in my life ever. And I turned to Cindy. You know we were going to drive the hospital, the kids.

Speaker 3: 10:01

Cindy had a sitter come over the kids right away and Kevin was in another person's house, and so we drove to the hospital and well, you came down to the kitchen and you said to me, after you had hung the phone up you said Cindy, he's gone and maybe that's a good thing. And we know there was no more discussion. We both knew what that meant.

Speaker 2: 10:24

But you know we drove, it was a cold night and I remember driving the hospital. I went in the back mansion for hours going and we had a discussion on the way over because you know we were really praying that he was dead because I didn't want my son to be somebody who has a bad head injury and be a you know what people term a vegetable lying around in a nursing home. I went to that with my brother and I didn't want that for Brian, and so we really, as bad as that sounds, we were hoping he was dead and not severely maimed and injured to lie around the rest of his life. And when we got there, dr Jadu was the attending trauma surgeon. He's friends with us and you know when we got out of the car we could tell we saw a little kind of space, but he turned to us and said that you know Brian's dad didn't.

Speaker 3: 11:07

Cindy started crying and I said, um no, how could it be Brian? He's such a good boy. It can't be Brian, because it's all coming at you at once and I knew he was dead and I knew ahead of him and something. I just didn't know what it was, but and I just knew what.

Speaker 2: 11:27

Yeah, well, it's not real, I mean, you know, it's like it wasn't real, though I said. But um, he took us in, you know, and we walked in and saw Brian and I can give you my first impression and Cindy gave you your impression, but it's to see your son lying there just pale white, you know, the sheet up to his neck.

Speaker 3: 11:45

And a gurney, and a gurney in the middle of the room, yeah, and just to see your son lying there dead.

Speaker 2: 11:50

there's no, no description. That was the most horrible and it's it's like, it's like a nightmare. It's like a nightmare you can't wake up from, and I'm sure some people have been through that too, but it's like it's like this nightmare that you're waking up to and you can't. You can't stop it and it's like the permanency of it. Like you know, I mean, I just saw him three hours ago and now my son's lying there dead and he'll never open his eyes and talk to me again. It's a horrible, horrible feeling.

Speaker 3: 12:11

Well he just looked like he was lying there, sleeping too, because he looked perfect and I went up and I touched his head and he never let me touch his hair and I I, you know put my hand across his hair and, um, I was a medical medical examiner, a deputy medical examiner, and I saw many, many car accidents.

Speaker 3: 12:35

We knew at that point it had been a car accident, um, and some, for some reason, I had to look at his feet because, um, if you're in a car accident, we knew he had hit a tree, um, and if you're in a car accident with an impact like that, you'll oftentimes see people's feet or their. The impact causes breakage of the bones and it goes all the way up to the hips sometimes. So I just had to see his feet and they were, they were kind of maimed and turned to the side as the ankles were broken. And I knew then that he was gone for sure, because he didn't look like he was totally dead, because he just looked like he was sleeping. And I touched him and he was cold and I know exactly why it was cold.

Speaker 2: 13:21

But I said to you he's so cold, yeah you know, cindy turned to me and she said you know he's cold. And I said I said yes, and that's because he's dead, you know, and we weren't thinking.

Speaker 3: 13:31

It's just so weird we were doctors but we were parents, but we're parents and it was like in slow motion and unreal and just really bizarre.

Speaker 2: 13:41

And, um, you know, Brian, when his car hit the tree it exploded in the flames and it was very amazing that he didn't have one burn on his body and we give credit to the firemen that went in and pulled him out of that car and risked their lives to get him out of that car before it exploded.

Speaker 3: 13:56

Because he the impact had pushed his seat back.

Speaker 2: 13:59

The whole engine was up in his compartment, so it was a horrible wreck.

Speaker 3: 14:03

It was well, because it was directed pin for the tree and we had a two car, two door car, so it pushed his seat back into the back seat and they had to try to cut him out before they use the jaws of life. It probably multiple police responded to that.

Speaker 4: 14:22

Well, yeah, it was a four or three or four different departments.

Speaker 2: 14:26

So then our next decision was you know what do we do at this point? And we knew we had to go home and talk to the kids and see what they wanted to do. They wanted to come back to the hospital. So we came home, kevin, they come home from his friends. We look at everybody and um, and I said, you know, we gathered him in the area in our house, and I said that you know Brian's been in an accident and your brother's dead. And um, I don't know if they can even remember.

Speaker 2: 14:53

I remember exactly what each of them did. I mean, chris, you're in a screaming saying no, it's not. You're running, it's not.

Speaker 4: 14:59

Uncle George right there. No, no, no, no.

Speaker 2: 15:02

And then we said we sat down.

Speaker 1: 15:04

I remember you said Brian was because I thought the same thing at first when I had to come home. You didn't want to come home.

Speaker 3: 15:09

No, because I thought you know Brian's friends were being stupid.

Speaker 1: 15:15

Like he's like that's the first thing you don't think. Uh, like, you watch TV shows all the time, you play video games, you do, you see movies and um, death is very much compartmentalized in society, to doctors, um, veterans and other people, so, like, actually someone being dead doesn't really make sense, like, how is that so? But as we sat down and my dad said that all set something kind of clicked right. Yeah, it felt like slow motion to me, but I I was very numb to it because it kept building as we were waiting and all this is going on, that something way worse is going on. You can just feel that your life's forever changed, but you don't know how to process it at the moment. Um, and then I know, christy, if you want to say yeah, I was 11.

Speaker 4: 16:01

So I think I even took it a lot different than Kevin's, I can tell you 15.

Speaker 1: 16:06

15.

Speaker 4: 16:07

Yeah, so I was a sixth grader. Um, it's like I understood what death was, Um, and like my grandpa had died or like other people had died and I was whatever. But I remember my dad said that and yeah.

Speaker 4: 16:20

I ran away and I was running around and I just kept saying, like you're lying, um, and I thought, and I think that's just denial in general, um, I mean, yeah, I contribute some of it to my age, but I think that's just denial. But, um, I remember this kid that we knew he had broken his leg a couple months before that place offer, um. And so I was like, oh, it's just like that. Like Brian just broke his leg, like same thing as they said. So Brian just broke his leg, like we'll have to help him around with his cast and everything.

Speaker 4: 16:52

And then my dad says I said that. And then my next reaction after being like no, you're lying, um, and they asked if we wanted to see him or whatever. I was like, oh, we need to, we need to go now. Like before he.

Speaker 3: 17:05

I still did.

Speaker 4: 17:05

Yeah, I didn't grasp that he was that Like we need to go so I can say goodbye, Like we have to hurry.

Speaker 1: 17:09

But see, like I knew like I comprehended it and that's why I I think I'm like I'm ready to fall asleep, and then he told me that he wanted to get up and say, okay, I need to make sure I can eat it. And that's why the first thing I thought is just my entire life, like you see your parents with their brothers and sisters, so you're aunts and uncles the first thing I like I was thinking about is just like our entire life. Brian's not going to be there for any. It's kind of one of those things that I guess people talk about when you die like life flashed before your eyes but I felt like of that's all gone. And then again, when we went to the hospital and seen Brian on the gurney, like I'll never forget that, like first seeing him, and then when you feel his super cold body, you just never I've never felt someone cold like that. So because I don't, you guys were obviously used to it, as you guys have felt that.

Speaker 2: 18:03

You never was used to it. I'm not used to it.

Speaker 1: 18:04

You never like. You never like feel. I've never felt like that.

Speaker 2: 18:06

Yeah, no, I know.

Speaker 4: 18:07

I'm under 15, I think I think my mind because the mind is crazy I think my mind has like suppressed that. But I do remember remnants of like being in that room and just seeing and it's like what you see on TV, like he literally was like a white body with a sheet and his face looked perfect and I think I touched his face or touched his hair and my sister was like Julia did not touch him. I'm like I love you. You're how I think she.

Speaker 1: 18:31

I remember the first thing we walked in the hospital and walked down the hallways. I remember seeing Brandon and Dr Zachary in there both. Brandon was crying and he gave us a hug Because he was his age.

Speaker 2: 18:41

So Dr Zachary is my partner, so obviously somebody, I mean they came, both my partners came in and-.

Speaker 3: 18:47

And their wives.

Speaker 2: 18:48

And their wives.

Speaker 3: 18:49

They were there almost before us.

Speaker 1: 18:51

But Brandon was a good friend. Yeah, brandon and Brian were good friends. So seeing him there crying your mind almost just like you guys are doctors and being like taking it back, it's cold for a second, you know someone's dead and understanding, but then it's not like super, super concrete. You're like hoping there's some like you're hoping life's like a movie where there's that one sliver of hope, or you're like dreaming, yeah, and then you see someone crying, then you walk into the room and then the door is like concretely shut, that Brian's dead.

Speaker 1: 19:21

And then you know we did the. A priest came and we did a send off. Like I always remember that about the story of him going over a cliff and saying goodbye.

Speaker 4: 19:30

What's home's?

Speaker 1: 19:31

story you remember.

Speaker 4: 19:32

I remember it.

Speaker 1: 19:33

You guys are.

Speaker 4: 19:34

Okay, wait, sorry, because we gathered around Brian.

Speaker 2: 19:36

He had his whole, whole hand.

Speaker 4: 19:38

Yeah, we got around Brian and he had his whole whole hand and he said that Brian was like at the edge of a cliff On a journey, on a journey and then he fell off. But like I'm worried because Jesus called him at the bottom, but like Jesus can't bring him all the way back up. He has him now but he's like okay, he's okay, jesus hasn't.

Speaker 3: 19:59

I'm just gonna bring him back up, did you guys? I don't know about you, but I just had this overwhelming sensation that that he was alive. And I'll tell you what, what I, what I realized it was, and that we I couldn't speak because he was speaking, the priest but I wanted to say he's, he's actually really alive. We gotta get somebody in here to help him. But what I think it was, it was his spirit. I almost felt like I could feel his spirit. He was there, it was so overwhelming and it was so real to me. But obviously he wasn't alive.

Speaker 2: 20:36

But I think one of the worst things for me is that when I how your body stops you from doing certain things and I miss, I just always remember this because it was just. I've never had an episode like this. But so I was calling on my best friend's bill and I was going to tell him that Brian died because he's very close with our family, and I tried to say it. I'll bet you at least five times. I said Brian's and I could not say the word dead and I couldn't get it out and my mind was blocking me and I just couldn't say it. And then, you know, he started guessing. He said what's going on? Where are I from the hospital? And he said what happens? Brian dead or something. And then I could say it, but I could not say the word. My mind was blocking me. It was so pained.

Speaker 3: 21:16

I don't know why it's like it's like I had an espresso with page To say the word dead, because I'd have to call and I like about the death certificate or about the hospital bill or this or that, and I'd have to say that my son died and I couldn't say the word died or dead. I would say he passed away, we lost him. I mean, I lost him.

Speaker 1: 21:40

I mean my friend. I left my friend Will's house. I remember they were wondering what was going on. I remember when I I remember texting Brian was dead, but I remember it, it's also you, just I remember when we waited to tell. We told grandma the next day and then telling our family, just like you guys, having to tell us you guys have talked about it how painful it is than having to tell your kids that they're all their brothers dead, having to tell other people that then someone they knew or were close with is dead. Then it's like you're putting the hurt on them.

Speaker 3: 22:09

But you know, what the amazing thing is is that the news of his death because of social media was just really kicked in. It spread so fast and some people had heard it on a police scanner the night before I had a friend that was going on a cruise. She used to do my hair. She was going on a cruise and she was in Florida and she heard it from her son, I mean everybody.

Speaker 2: 22:35

Just the news spread like it was everywhere it became a massive story.

Speaker 1: 22:39

I mean it was massive event in the community and it was all around Brian. He was interconnected with a lot of things and just our family and him so so many people and just it's very tragic events. Cause I mean everyone had blue hearts. So Brian was potentially going to go to North Carolina. So Carolina, blue and just blue hearts on people's wrist. Next school week people had them all. They spray paint a rock, spray paint the tree that he hid.

Speaker 4: 23:09

So that was.

Speaker 2: 23:10

Brian that was Brian's first choice in college was University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Speaker 3: 23:15

So we had just visited the week before.

Speaker 2: 23:17

Yeah, so he three days after he died, we guys acceptance letter that he was accepted there and he never knew that that's where he wanted to go.

Speaker 3: 23:25

He wanted to go to.

Speaker 4: 23:26

I apply when I'm in the senior sector, but I was in the senior. Oh, I went to like an old girls Catholic school at that point in the junior high and high school and the next day, even though, like Brian, went to Adela Hills, which is just on the road, and like all of them, kevin and Julie went to Adela Hills, everyone there was like hugging me and there was a whole like church Cause like at the school, there's a whole church service that day. But because a lot of those seniors at the school, I went to new Brian and school with him when he went to St Joe's, so like it was all he was, like all throughout the community at different places.

Speaker 2: 24:04

Yeah, and so I think you know, obviously part of this episode is going to be about grief, but you know. So this is the first part of grief. Right For us was the shock. It's just shock, it's like disbelief.

Speaker 1: 24:15

Everything's true, everything's surreal, and those slow motion, that entire.

Speaker 3: 24:20

The next week at school and everything I don't know.

Speaker 1: 24:23

It was like for you to do surgery or something. He did it for the whole family, Whenever cause. I remember going to school and everything felt me like going to school felt me in this.

Speaker 4: 24:33

Well how long did you take off work?

Speaker 2: 24:36

Two weeks, but I mean the first week was just about planning as funeral. I mean, if you ever have to pick out your son's casket or your child's casket and the clothes you're going to bury him in, and all the things you need to do, get a church ready and stuff. It's a horrible, horrible process.

Speaker 3: 24:50

What I was just and it's numbing. What I was going to say is is because it traveled like wildfire, because it was a young person and it was tragic. People were already at our house when we got home because we went to Julie's quarter or it was like a playoff basketball game, and she really wanted to go. When you have something so tragic happen so suddenly, so violently, you are grasping to hold onto your routine and your schedule. So she really, really wanted to go to the basketball game because what you had said, brian had said something to her about it, they had talked about it and it's just, you really want to go and do your routine.

Speaker 2: 25:33

I mean, we literally got home at three o'clock in the morning. We slept till we didn't sleep Well first of all, we didn't sleep, we were just up all night.

Speaker 3: 25:38

We laid with the girls.

Speaker 2: 25:39

Yeah, chrissy came in and wanted to know why Brian died.

Speaker 1: 25:43

It was late, Wait what I remember being home late.

Speaker 4: 25:45

Chrissy wanted to know.

Speaker 1: 25:46

I think I went to like 5.30.

Speaker 4: 25:48

Yeah, we were up all night yeah me and Julie.

Speaker 3: 25:51

We were in the room.

Speaker 2: 25:52

We were laying in bed together and then Kevin isolated immediately because yeah, I tried to get Kevin to come down and look up, so I really wanted him to be out, as he told his aunt.

Speaker 3: 26:01

She said to him the next day or a couple of days later it's okay to cry, kevin. And Kevin told her do you remember what he told her? No way. He said I can't, I'm the oldest now. So she told me I don't know. I don't know if that's I don't know. But anyway.

Speaker 1: 26:17

That's just like when you portray me in the like how your thoughts of me in the book. That's not. I'm just I've always been more like. I'm not going to all go lay in the bed together.

Speaker 4: 26:28

That's not what I'm saying. I think Julie was crying on the floor.

Speaker 1: 26:31

I was like that didn't to me, that I didn't find comfort in that. That wasn't going to make anything better for myself.

Speaker 2: 26:36

Right, so we respected that.

Speaker 1: 26:37

I was scared, I didn't, I know.

Speaker 2: 26:40

So I just wanted to be by myself and process things, but anyways the thing that we got up and went at 7.30 or 7 o'clock in the morning to a basketball game and the minute we walked in everybody knew everybody was sad. Everybody came and approached us.

Speaker 3: 26:53

People were crying, the girls on the basketball teams were crying. And then we stopped at my mom's and told her and it's a miracle she didn't hear about it, because one of my good friends growing up as a farmer and he said he heard it in Michigan and he heard it on the 5.30 AM news. So he announced his name on the 530 AM news before I even had a chance to tell my own mother. Is that legal?

Speaker 2: 27:20

I don't know, but to think he only died at one o'clock in the morning and they already got on the 530.

Speaker 4: 27:25

Right. You know how news are usually like don't disclose the name for a while, right.

Speaker 3: 27:28

They want to wait. So anyway, or maybe he heard it and he didn't know it was Brian, but whatever. So then we got home from telling my mom, probably around noon one o'clock, and there were so many people here because everybody was just thinking about what if it would have been there.

Speaker 2: 27:45

Well, they asked if they somebody came over the door and they asked would you mind if some people would come over today? And I think there must have been a hundred two hundred people came over today and Interact with you and that's it's like it's.

Speaker 1: 27:58

It's very nice. But that's why sometimes, when I've known people who have lost someone, everyone wants to like kind of be in touch with you or interact with you in some way, because they don't know what to do. But it is, it's overwhelming at the time they're.

Speaker 2: 28:13

I mean even more so for you guys, probably, but for that entire next week or two and Brian's friends came over and they wanted to go up in his room and see where you know well they come over for a month afterwards and just go sit in his room Sometimes.

Speaker 3: 28:25

could you mind if I sit in his room and just process?

Speaker 4: 28:29

Well, even explain, like his showing, and how that was.

Speaker 3: 28:33

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:34

Well, so my great grandfather started a funeral home called Happily, our Fertile Home. It's been around since 1875, but in the history of that funeral home, over 125, what was it? How many years? 1875, so 150 years. That was Brian's showing was the second largest ever of anybody's ever gone to a funeral home. And you know, we had probably 300 to 400 people easily each day, maybe more, and we, we would just stand. I mean people would stand, I mean people would stand in line for like three hours to see Brian. It was incredible.

Speaker 4: 29:11

The lines were backed up, it was like 12 to eight. Both things were just not normal.

Speaker 3: 29:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:15

And we would stand up, we would stand up.

Speaker 3: 29:18

We would stand because and I knew that I had to be present and I had to go through it because this was like his graduation, his college graduation, his first, his marriage, his first baby this was everything and every birthday all wrapped in one, and we had to, and this was the only time that we would see all these people to celebrate Brian.

Speaker 2: 29:40

Well, and you want to like we had everything out. You know, you want to show people who Brian was and you get all this stuff out to try to give you some, to let them know who Brian was. That's all you want. It's all you want is for people to know who Brian was, because it reminds you that he was a real person, I think.

Speaker 3: 29:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:54

You know, you want people to know Brian's really not. He's a real person. Because you know once people die they're gone and people like it's like he's not a real person anymore. He is a real person.

Speaker 1: 30:03

Once someone is dead, like your legacy is all you can carry down. Your legacy is carried down through other people, so nothing else.

Speaker 2: 30:09

you don't keep anything else, so a small part of you lives on in those other people and, depending on the impact you made, it's those people who kind of carry that on and I remember like Cindy wouldn't eat and I remember some women who would just come over to the house help her get dressed, help her, try to force feed her Me. You're like a zombie.

Speaker 3: 30:29

You're like a zombie all week because it's just, every time I tried to do anything, there was something else to do, or somebody was interrupting, or you know.

Speaker 2: 30:35

and it was so hard.

Speaker 3: 30:38

I mean at one point, I think Jackie Zachary almost fed me.

Speaker 2: 30:42

I think she did.

Speaker 4: 30:43

I think the funeral, I think for me, I think the funeral was solidified things for me, because even seeing her in the Grammy that night like didn't feel real. But like then, like in the middle of the day, like he's just in a casket, I think that just made it real.

Speaker 2: 30:58

Well, what's real about it? So he had to have an autopsy done because it was a trauma, so that takes days. And then by the time he was showing it's a week later and you know skin was starting to deteriorate and every night they'd have to put his makeup back on and stuff and you could see it as the day we're on the makeup and the skin was deteriorating. It was really he looked good, but it was bad.

Speaker 1: 31:19

I think Christy can make it messing up his makeup. I was touching his face.

Speaker 4: 31:24

I kept touching it and it would like wipe off the foundation or whatever type of Makeup is. I remember it looked very like not like orange, but it looked like some type of yeah it was some type of shade. Yeah, it was really thick and like it looked like him, but it also didn't like not like the night that I saw, which actually helped me because he said I don't know if he

Speaker 3: 31:45

forewarned me he like, as if you would have to forewarn me, but you did, which was very kind and sweet, Cindy. Now he's not going to look like you did at the hospital and when I saw him, I you know, yeah, he was dead and he looked dead. And that was actually easier, because if he would have still looked so good, it would have been even better and like, oh, but you talk about your legacy lives on. The funny thing is is we didn't have to tell people who Brian was, because it amazed me that the person that we knew he was that person to everybody. And I think a lot of times kids show different faces to family or to their friends or to their teachers.

Speaker 3: 32:28

Yeah, to their teachers and their different people. Brian was the same person to everybody pretty much and I think that's pretty amazing, but maybe that's a sign of the fact that he was going to leave early and it helped.

Speaker 2: 32:42

I don't know. And I think what happens to my perspective was like, you know, we had the funeral and that was huge and I think that was the whole church was just Jean-Pak standing remotely and there was five priests there because there were so many people and I just I remember them closing that casket. You know we had that. He was in the church, we were the last ones to see him after everybody else saw him, and just watching him close that casket was the final thing. It's just the finality of it was horrible, because you're never going to see his face again.

Speaker 2: 33:14

And then when they took him to the, to where he's going to be buried you know where my family has been buried for a hundred years just, just that whole, that whole episode, and then watch them. You know, lower the, how he stayed until they lowered the casket. It just, it brings reality to it. But then it's like now what do we do? It's like you know that whole week you're so busy but you're exhausted, and then all of a sudden they close the casket and it's over. And now what do we do with our land Like Brian's gone, we went to the reception for 700 people.

Speaker 2: 33:47

Oh yeah, I know. I mean, that's when grief really sets in, Cause now the depression like what are we going to do?

Speaker 1: 33:51

Cause there's there's a whirlwind of things going on. It keeps you kind of going. Yeah, it's once it slows down a little bit, that's where it gets way. It kind of dips up for a bit at first, after you go really low, and then it goes way back down. I mean it's almost like a climate.

Speaker 2: 34:08

I remember when we did the the hearse, when the hearse went, I mean they had police cars at all these lights everywhere until we got the.

Speaker 1: 34:16

I mean it was, it was incredible, I mean that's why I was going to say that was, that was insane, yeah, and there it's like on TV.

Speaker 2: 34:21

I mean they're you know. Usually you see a film about buying. People are just going one behind the other. They had police stations, police car stations stop lights and they held it and it was crazy. And so it's like all that build up and then it's, and then, and then it's over, and now everybody's scattered on.

Speaker 3: 34:37

what do you do? A gift, if? If you can call it that, because I know somebody who's son? Well, actually he was with Brian and he died. Somebody, one of his friends died in 2020 and he it was COVID, so he didn't even get to come home and they didn't have a funeral for him and they didn't get the whole plot because, he was already out of school for seven years and I realized then what a gift it was that he had had such a wonderful, that we had received so much love.

Speaker 3: 35:11

You wanted to say something for.

Speaker 4: 35:12

Steve, it was just something about like, well, he's trying to cast a closing, but like how's?

Speaker 2: 35:19

it Remember you put your letter. Yeah, what did I put in there?

Speaker 4: 35:22

A letter to Brian, I remember putting it in there and some people put like a spike. Someone put a spike ball on it.

Speaker 2: 35:29

It's a little drawer in the cast. We can put notes and stuff and then you can put whatever you want.

Speaker 4: 35:33

I thought that was going to somebody put a golf ball too. Yeah, it's just kind of cool.

Speaker 1: 35:36

So yeah, that was all after Brian died died in the first couple of weeks, especially that first week from when he died, and then the funeral next week and sometime in between that time and we'll get into this later in the episode it came out he was under the influence of alcohol when he was driving. So that came out and that tie in later with kind of the aftermath too of my brother's death and what we did as a family, what my parents did. So we'll get to that later. I think what I want to do is kind of go forward from there, kind of what our experience is like and each person we can just take our time, but each person what it was like immediately, kind of intermediately, like maybe a couple of years later, and then what it's like for you now and how you think, like if you think about life differently or how you think about grief, like really get into each of us talking about three reasons. Does anyone want to go first? I mean?

Speaker 4: 36:37

I'll start with you and we'll go with that.

Speaker 4: 36:42

Like pain and loss and everything is all relative. So like, obviously, if you compare my mom and I, she lost a son, I lost a brother. So like you would say like, oh, it's worse for her, but it's all relative. And I think also I was at an age that I was so young that it was really during like a very important developmental phase. But when he first died, I mean I don't even know how to describe how I felt I was just I think it was different because we all lived together. We were all kids who lived together.

Speaker 4: 37:16

It wasn't like losing your brother when you're like 23 or whatever and you don't live together. You know, kind of like I was up together, but so I don't know, it was just weird because then, like my oldest brother was gone and I feel like I got along a lot more at that time with Brian, or maybe not along, but I talked to him more than Kevin or whatever, and he was just always coming in, he was loud and happy, and so then I think like our house was just really silent for a long time after, like directly after people kind of. We just I don't know, and like I know there was a couple instances where we tried like family counseling, but like that didn't really go anywhere.

Speaker 4: 37:58

And then a couple of years down the line, like once I started to approach high school and things like that, I kind of felt like my identity was always just like the girl whose brother died in like a jump driving crash, or like I'd go to parties and it's like everyone tiptoed around because I really died by drinking or like not that I should have been drinking.

Speaker 4: 38:15

But I'm just saying it was like always like it felt like there was a spotlight on me because I didn't have a lot of friends at that point in public traumatic experiences or anything like that. And then I remember, like when it was a couple years down, I would always try, because you start to and I know you guys all agree like you start to forget what they sound like or what their laugh sounds like, or even like what they look like. I mean, I don't forget what he looks like, but all you have is pictures and I didn't really have a lot of. I had pictures with him and some of me with him, but I didn't really have like videos and I was always trying to find videos to hear him like laugh. And I think there's a couple I have in this basement where, like ones, I need to book the ping pong videos and I don't know it was just hard Because our whole family dynamic changes obviously and I think my parents I just knew they were like they were there for us obviously, but it's just there's like a piece of them missing from before and just like Kevin being the oldest, and that changed the dynamic and I think it really just impacts how I grew up and I think I'd be a completely different person if I didn't that didn't happen.

Speaker 4: 39:29

And then now I mean I'm at the age where I've lived, I'm nearly at age where I've lived more in my life without him than with him, and also I don't really remember him when I was like one, two or three years old, but so I don't know. It feels like he's so far away. But just recently, this year or this last year, I've gotten, I've been thinking about it more. I just had like a big portrait in my room. Actually I still have a little frame, but I think now, having my son, I think of him a lot and I'm sad because I wish Archie had met his uncle, Brian.

Speaker 4: 40:05

So now, like that would be so exciting and just like seeing some of his friends. Brian's friends are getting married and I'm just like, oh, I wish I could go to his wedding or see him being orped on. So whatever he would have done, it's just weird to see all that happening. I think of things like who is Kevin's best man gonna be, or just like random stuff like that. But I mean for me I don't know if it's a daily thing where I think of him, but I still, I still come around, especially with my baby. So yeah, that's all.

Speaker 3: 40:36

Sorry if I went on too long, no, I think I looked at the first year as a year of just shock and you it's just looking back, not at the time, but looking back it's like things were in slow motion.

Speaker 3: 40:58

You not only did I not wanna eat, sometimes when I ate, it made me sick, I'd get stomach aches, I'd have diarrhea and that kind of surprised me.

Speaker 3: 41:11

The visceral response, the response of your body to grief, not being able to sleep, I could understand. I could understand. But all of that, and just kind of only being able to do one thing at a time and not even really being able to do that well, not being able to remember, just really not functioning, you're in shock and it just isn't real and it affects your everything, cause as a mother, you run through your mind all the time where your kids are Okay, this one's here and this was there, and that was not gonna be home for dinner, and I was still cycling him through my mind and there was no new activities. I guess that's a whole new brain pattern, as Julie would say, and I didn't like it. And I remember people talking about finding your new normal and it made me very angry because I didn't want to find a new normal and that implied maybe new sounds exciting, and it wasn't exciting, it was not good and I didn't want to find it.

Speaker 3: 42:19

So I look at the second ear as one of the really sadness and grief hit. They weren't really hurt really bad. So the second ear for me was really much worse and, long story short, I'd say it took at least 10 years before I finally felt like maybe I was starting to put it behind me. Nine years maybe, because it's one thing for you to deal with it and then you've gotta be helping your kids deal with it and they don't. Really you can't help anybody deal with grief. You just you can only be there and they have to deal with themselves because there's no help in anything. There were, it would be great.

Speaker 3: 43:02

I remember friends asking me well, you're taking something right, You're on something for the depression, right? Why would I want to be on an antidepressant to numb my feelings and my emotions so that after I came off of that antidepressant I could start feeling those emotions and grief all over again? Not wanting to do that Because I wasn't depressed, I was going through grief. Luckily you guys were very busy, so it kept me very busy and it kept my mind off things. I used to go into his room and shut the door and go in there with the dogs and cry and then I couldn't breathe, so then I'd have to. It was just an ugly cycle.

Speaker 3: 43:50

And one thing I came to realize that I did have to find a new normal because we would have to find a new way of living, and when I finally accepted that, it made things a little easier. And the other thing that I realized is that I believe that God gives you an amazing ability to feel extreme pain and grief and loss and at the same time, feel happiness and joy for other things in your life, and I think that is an amazing thing that we can feel both of them at the same time. Because I had a lot. I still I mean, even in the beginning, I had a lot of joy. I had three other children, I had a wonderful husband, I had such great friends and the community was incredibly supportive, and that I'm so grateful for, because they didn't have to be that they were. As I was told many, many times. It's our recurrence right now.

Speaker 4: 44:59

I think everybody's totally different, like my, overwhelming thing, that first week and first two or three weeks was loneliness.

Speaker 2: 45:07

I remember just walking around the house. I couldn't sit still and I'm just walking around the house and you just you're unsettled, you don't feel normal, I feel like I was alone in the world and even though all the kids were here and Cindy was here, it's like you're just alone. You can't just walk around the house and you're just alone and I feel like I was alone in the world. It's like you're just alone. You feel alone and I think that's private part of where we all broke apart a little bit. There was the loneliness because you're so lonely you can't connect with people. I mean, that's how I felt and we actually went to a counselor early on. Someone suggested we went to a counselor and this guy had told us that he's too early for us to be there.

Speaker 2: 45:49

But no, he didn't say that. He said you're gonna go through a dark tunnel and when you come out of the tunnel you'll be different people and 90% of people get divorced. And I said this is not what we need to hear right now. So I think we did it on our own. But I remember and since things just took a moment, I remember we had a trip planned to go on vacation. We all scooped it out and it was about we already had this place run and it was two or three months after Ryan died. We debated to go, but we said why would we not go? It's paid for everything. And I remember trying to pack all our school stuff in the bags, like I always do, and I just started crying. I couldn't do it in the one fit Right. Remember I came to you and said, cindy, I can't get this stuff in. And I was decompensating Because I that's usually my job Right.

Speaker 2: 46:29

So it shows you what it does to you, and so I needed a purpose and I stayed off work for two weeks and I went back to work at two weeks and then A little bit at a time, a little bit of time and I don't know how you guys felt like I'd be at work till noon and I had to come home. I mean, I used to work till 7 o'clock in the night. I couldn't be past noon. It's like a homing device. I had to come home.

Speaker 2: 46:50

To make sure everybody was okay, well, and we're a Brian live, because I needed to get home. It was calling me back to the house to be where everybody was, and we're a Brian live. And that went on for a month or two. I just had to get back. I just couldn't. You wanna say something for me?

Speaker 4: 47:06

I mean, I have a genuine question, Like being a doctor and you just wanted to go home and they let you just because of the circumstances.

Speaker 2: 47:13

No, I would only book office till a certain time, because I knew that was happening. So even then, if the office was till two, there are days where I had to leave and I just cancel my office. I just had to do it.

Speaker 3: 47:24

And I think everybody knew about it. Are you in your days at that? Time no, and everybody knew about it, cause you had people for years coming in telling you how sorry they were they still do.

Speaker 2: 47:34

I mean I get people still at this day, 10 years later, coming sad and just so sorry about your son. But then I started back with trauma call, I think three or four weeks after Brian died, and started operating again. It was hard I mean the whole thing is hard. But then I needed a purpose and I know obviously Brian had been drinking that night and Cindy and I took that whole issue head on about our son drinking.

Speaker 2: 48:00

It wasn't the right thing to do but, kids make a mistake, yeah, but the way the media was portraying him and that he's like just a little bit drunk who was out there with this high alcohol level, just an irresponsible person. He was irresponsible at night cause he was drunk, but he's not an irresponsible person. Brian was a good kid. He made good decisions, except for nights, obviously, he'd been drinking. So I knew I couldn't let that happen. So we I called the local news station and I said would you guys want to do an interview with Cindy and I to really set the record straight? And we were very upfront about our son drinking and driving and we're dead set against it and but also told the kind of person that Brian was. And then we knew that we had to do something with that. So for me that was really about trying to help other people you know, as most parents do when tragedy happens, to try to reach other people, other parents, other kids about drinking and driving. That's been an ongoing process for 10 years and I think we've changed a lot of lives. And then I think I also I needed something else, like I needed to do something that Brian never got a chance to do was kind of I was like I remember the first three months of my car I couldn't listen to the radio. I wouldn't turn the radio on cause I couldn't. I couldn't listen to something that usually would make me happy in the car, and so I couldn't do it cause Brian couldn't be happy. I couldn't be happy it's like you can't be happy because he's gone and doesn't have a chance to be happy. And then and then I got into running and exercising and ultimately did an Ironman, and that was all about just trying to do things that I would have never done, that maybe things that I can do, that Brian doesn't have a chance to do I.

Speaker 2: 49:35

There's some element of that and I think you know, as the I don't have specific timelines I mean I remember we left Brian's room exactly the same way. It was when he left his book bag that day, where his shoes were lined up under his bag. We didn't, we didn't touch that room for years, I mean years. Everything was exactly the same as closet his clothes, we didn't touch anything. And then, years down the road, I said he said, you know, we got to do so. We gradually, like, moved his, moved his backpack and we and we, you know, changed some stuff in his room a little bit, just a little bit little baby steps, and then we actually started moving some of the stuff out. That was like big time. But I think that's for me that's what the process of grief is. It takes a long time to accept it and be ready, and then it's baby steps and then eventually, when we were ready, we moved all stuff Brian's bed out of the bedroom stuff and now it's an office and his clothes are still hanging in the closet, a lot of them.

Speaker 2: 50:36

But I mean there comes a point where you have to like it's kind of acceptance. You know a little bit and you can, I'll never accept it. I mean there's no accepting it and there's no getting over it. These people will say you'll get over it, you know, it just takes time. It takes time but it doesn't ever change the fact that Brian's not here. I mean I remember how people talk a hole in your heart. It's like somebody ripped your heart out and I can't describe that too and you'll never feel it. But there's always a part of you that's missing and you'll never get that back. And I remember walking around our nice house here and I'm a neurosurgeon and we do very well and I was thinking I would be happy to give up everything I own.

Speaker 3: 51:13

Your right arm, your legs, your eyes. I would give up everything I own.

Speaker 2: 51:16

I went through the whole story and I'd be a homeless if Brian could be back. It's that's when you realize that money doesn't buy you things. Power doesn't buy you things. Statue doesn't buy you things. The only thing that buys you is having the ones you love around you. And that's when I learned that lesson the hardest way there is. You know, 10 years later, I mean, we can still get emotional here. I mean everything is dull, right, like. I mean the memory of Brian is there. I can't remember his voice. I remember the first time I said I woke up one morning I said, cindy, I can't remember his voice and that was a horrible feeling. I can kind of picture his face right now in my mind. But you know, brian's gone. Now you kind of focus on the good times. You don't remember the bad times as much. You can still get very emotional, but it's just never gone. There's not gonna be a day in our lives there might be a day now that goes by that maybe I forgot about Brian for a day.

Speaker 3: 52:05

But he's always there.

Speaker 2: 52:06

It's always there and you're never gonna forget, and grief is the gift that gives forever.

Speaker 2: 52:12

It's not, you can't ever get over grief, but there's different levels of it and different ways to cope with it and everybody has a different coping mechanism Mine, you know. My coping mechanism is much different than your guys' probably, and I did different things, you know, as Cindy maybe felt I don't know, you're much different than me, so I did things that were more how do you wanna put it Like I got involved in things. You know, a cause proactive and Cindy is more about how would you say?

Speaker 3: 52:41

I mean Well, I'm usually the proactive one, but I became very, very reflective.

Speaker 2: 52:46

Reflective and withdrawn a little bit I was drawn. You were much more drawn than you ever were. I mean, she's the outgoing one. She was more withdrawn.

Speaker 3: 52:52

I was much more withdrawn and I thought about things a lot, but it took me a long time to process it and go through everything and understand some kind of understanding.

Speaker 2: 53:04

And there's no. It's just a lifetime process. We'll live with this till I die. We'll live with this, our kids will live with it till they die, and it's just the way it's gonna be. And that's what I hated about the whole thing it's the finality of it and the permanency. When Brian died, it's like you can't take it back, and you know, you had this wonderful life and this different life, and when Brian died, we were thrown into this new life that we didn't want, but we had to. We have to accept it because there's no going back, and so you have to just do what you can.

Speaker 3: 53:34

I think, there was a lot of also in the near term, but I think there was a lot of like water, so there was like Trying to borrow-.

Speaker 4: 53:42

Sorry, what, no, like what could have been. Yeah, I'm realizing what could have been. The regret of not being Also just like Brooklyn, like I mean I don't have coping mechanisms, but into high school, and I think at one point you guys felt this way because you told me like, and I know, like, oh, I know like no one actually did it or whatever, but I think everyone just at first time just wanted to like, die.

Speaker 3: 54:03

Like for my kids.

Speaker 1: 54:04

No, but that's a real, that's a real thing.

Speaker 2: 54:06

I mean if we didn't have kids, if Cindy and I were didn't have kids except Brian, I think there would have been a good chance we would have.

Speaker 3: 54:13

We talked about you know this is horrible, I mean the pain is so bad you want to kill yourself.

Speaker 2: 54:19

It's like you can't live with this pain and obviously you know most people don't, but I'm saying it's a horrible pain.

Speaker 1: 54:25

You want the pain to go away any way you can. Let's tell you can sometimes. That's why it's not ever fair when someone says about suicide. You never can know.

Speaker 2: 54:34

You have to be in a very very dark place to do something like that.

Speaker 1: 54:37

And it's not thinking straight.

Speaker 2: 54:39

It's not feeling, it's the pain you want to, it's the agony that I can either.

Speaker 3: 54:42

It's.

Speaker 1: 54:42

The pain is so severe that you want to try and but even someone who, probably before Brian, died, that would probably be.

Speaker 3: 54:48

the furthest thing from your mind is something like suicide, so I thought suicide was a coward's way out.

Speaker 1: 54:55

Yeah, but it all changed. You found out. You sure did. Yeah, it's way, you didn't feel it yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 55:00

Go ahead, Kevin.

Speaker 1: 55:02

Yeah. So the first couple months, yeah, our whirlwinds At first, when there's just so much you're not completely processed, it's so fresh and there's so much support and outpouring that you kind of just get through those first couple months. And after the first couple months it gets much worse, I think, and there's such a mix of emotions, of anger, sadness, all these things, yeah, what ifs? Regret and everything else. There's times anger at ourselves, anger for me, anger at Brian. Sometimes there was times where you wish it was very unrealistic, but you wish somehow that you could have been the hero in a movie and gone over to the house somehow and been at the party and stopped Brian. Even it's very unrealistic.

Speaker 1: 55:54

But yeah, I remember after the first couple weeks to years later, I would sometimes just I'd put music in, look through pictures and videos of Brian and I would just cry so much. And you go through it. And early on I remember going through school and I can always get all my stuff done. I'm like going to school doing homework, doing sports. I was always very, very good and I still think I am at being something where I don't feel that way. So I could still sit there with friends and joke and stuff. But you feel dead inside a little bit and it feels like you're just pretending.

Speaker 1: 56:43

Dissociated yeah but not that, because I know what I'm doing, because society, everyone asks each other all the time like, hey, how are you doing? Everyone says you're good. You don't say I'm doing shit right now actually, and I want to cry and I don't want to do any of this.

Speaker 1: 57:04

But I don't think you can give into that because you have to just kind of slowly keep going. I mean, my mom were talking about this on another episode but some days all you have to do is just get through that day, no matter what an accomplishment early on is just getting through a day, because it comes in waves and I remember people always saying time heals all and I remember more time kept going on. I don't think time heals all and I still don't. I'll talk to you, but I think I read this somewhere before and maybe extrapolated on it. But it's like if there's a box and there's a trigger point inside that box with a ball and at first that's going to hit your trigger point.

Speaker 1: 57:47

All the time your trigger a lot more. Like you see someone else, like another person's kid or brother, that triggers, or something you would have done with Brian, that triggers you a lot more. And over time the instances of those times coming up are less, but it hurts just as deeply. Every time those moments do come up it hurts. Even over 10 years later I still feel that I was at a wedding the other weekend and, just like Chrissy said, I saw this guy's older brother was his best man.

Speaker 1: 58:18

That stuff goes through my head and then that makes you you're not going to start crying at this wedding, but that makes you feel terrible inside because, no matter what, your brother's never going to be your best man. So it really evolves over time and I think somewhat like my dad too, like what he was saying, I would always think about things like Brian's dead, now He'd want to honor his legacy. I would always want to, and I continuously do want to do things that he maybe couldn't get to do, or just to honor his legacy, just like with Brian matters, or spreading awareness, at least to try to bring some purpose to him being gone.

Speaker 1: 59:01

Because that's all you can do when someone's gone is you would hope that the people you've impacted in your life carry on your legacy and make an impact in your name. So, yeah, you kind of just keep on going and I remember there was a big moment, I think, in college, where I turned a little bit of a corner, and that was like four or five years later, was when I decided that I can sit there and think about Brian every day and I do, and I think about him all the time, and so many of those things would hurt. At a certain point you have to let yourself. Let go a little bit and you feel guilty a little bit that you're letting go. But in order to live your own life, you have to let go of their memory a little bit and not obsess over thinking about them or things like that so you can live your own life Because you can't think about it too much like that.

Speaker 1: 59:58

No matter what, you're going to constantly put yourself into a depressive mood and you have to let yourself be happy and live your own life. That would be an meltdown in the experience. A lot of things come with that, but the biggest thing I think is just so many times interacting with other people is this idea of oh, you're so strong, you guys, what you went through, I wish we fucking weren't strong. I wish I never had to go through that. I never felt strong. I still don't feel strong from it because it just hurts and it sucks and that does define your life.

Speaker 1: 1:00:33

But the thing I always think about is you can let it destroy and I think you guys obviously talked about that, but you can let it something major events in your life that can either be the reason like destroy you, or they can be the catalyst for great things, and that's something what Brian always thinks and say. I think you can take the positive or negative view of anything. So trying to keep a glass half full view of the world and I would say even so, it's easier now, but you still take it one step at a time, just times. We have a tree in our backyard. I'll go sit in front of the tree sometimes and think about Brian I mean just in my montex, one of his good friends, jimmy because no matter what you really do, miss the person forever more, and I think grief is something you deal with forever once you experience something and that's your new perception of the world and you try to just make something positive out of it. That's kind of just what I do.

Speaker 3: 1:01:36

And one of the reasons we try to make something positive is because we knew that that's what he would want and he would never have done this if he would have been thinking because no one would willingly leave so much pain behind them.

Speaker 2: 1:01:54

And I also think a lot of people ask you know, like, just how do you deal with grief? And how do I deal with grief? And I feel a lot of people, as patients, come in and ask me about that. Talk about Brian, how do I deal? They've lost something. How did you do it? How did you guys do so well through it? We didn't do well.

Speaker 2: 1:02:10

It may look like it, but I'm just saying I think grief it's so individualized. There's not a right or wrong answer. You know people give you all this advice, but until you've been through something you never know, nobody can tell you how you feel but you. And so that's why I hate when people try to tell you how you should feel. It's all individual and you have to do it at your own pace. Maybe I got through it quicker than Cindy or Calvin or Christie, I don't know, but everybody has to do it at their own pace and there's not a right or wrong answer. And don't ever let people pressure you in like, well, you've had enough time, now you should feel better. You should really get out and start dating again. You should really start doing this. You know you do what you need to do. Okay, it's not up to other people to decide that. I mean, that's how that irks me so bad. I mean, it's such an individual process.

Speaker 4: 1:02:53

I feel like there is a moment in school like which I mean, yeah, people are, you have to move your life at some point. But I think after there was like a moment in school like right after you would miss school and the teachers were fine, we're late, yeah, we'd be late, and then like three months down the line or however long not very long not very long, they told me.

Speaker 4: 1:03:16

And my mom, like she doesn't, she didn't get any more free passes, like she's gotta come to school. It's like, well, you missed a lot of school. Okay, I know Obviously there's other people going around, but you know what I mean. Like after however long, like your job or whatever people aren't like they're just gonna stop.

Speaker 3: 1:03:34

Well one of the teachers gave somebody 50% off on math tests.

Speaker 3: 1:03:39

The math teacher will remain unnamed and I called the vice principal and it was only like a month or two it was Julie, and later because she turned it in a day later or something and I remember calling Jackie and saying you know something, this is, it'll never be okay. And there, this isn't that long. I said they're going to be needing extra care for the next year or two at least. And I said this is only about a month or two. And to cut not cut them any slack and act as if they're just going to be right up to snuff, it is ridiculous.

Speaker 2: 1:04:16

Well, it's funny too, you know. They bring all the counselors in for weeks after Brian died and all the kids get counseling, which is a wonderful thing for a couple of weeks. But what about the person's sister? I mean the sibling they should be cut a little bit longer than that too, yeah, but to touch on what you said, I agree with that completely.

Speaker 1: 1:04:33

That's the whole point of like people talking about grief and feelings and like our hope is just showing people that there is no perfect way to deal with things. There is just only your way and some things work for you, Some things won't, but you just have to. You keep going on, you're supposed to be true to yourself? Yeah, and you just. There is no figuring it out, you just keep going. You just have to try it.

Speaker 2: 1:04:57

And I do think also like utilize friends and stuff, because I think you know so there are people who will commit suicide when tragedies happen and if you're out there like that and thinking that way, you know try to tap into talking to people. Just talking helps so much. It gets you out of that dark spot. You know, family was a huge family and friends are what really pulled us through.

Speaker 3: 1:05:18

Just being there If you wonder what to do. Just having company, sometimes just listening to the person go on and on about their loved one, which gets hard. It's hard, I know, but that's what they need. They need to talk about their loved one and they just need somebody to be there, and sometimes it's just being there.

Speaker 1: 1:05:34

I'll stick to that with someone. Let's see if you're on the other end. Yeah, you'd sit the big good listener, I still I still, that's the only thing you do with some friends that knew Brian, or friends with Brian and me, just kind of talking about Brian at a good time. So we had, I mean, that's always just feels good, I mean that's. That's all you have left.

Speaker 3: 1:05:51

You know I wanted to ask you guys if you felt this way like the first year or so. You know everybody would be like oh, how are you doing? Are you okay? Is it okay? Is everything? There came a point when I got sick of listening to myself whining and crying and not everybody being sad At what I usually like.

Speaker 1: 1:06:12

That's how I'm especially. I was a 15 year old male so too, so I kept, I you know, putting on a. I thought I could always handle it, so I would, you know, deal with it myself. I would put on a strong front in the way, and I didn't want to like bring sadness and other things around.

Speaker 3: 1:06:29

But I remember just being to the point where somebody would ask me and I would just say you know what? Yeah, I'm doing better, because I didn't want them to always be looking at me our friends and go. Oh, that's the poorer woman whose son died. We always got to bring it up. Yeah, it's not that they felt. I don't think that it was a burden to them to bring it up.

Speaker 1: 1:06:56

The last try is a lot of work.

Speaker 3: 1:07:00

Not to bring that. It's a burden for them to feel sorry for me, but I didn't want them to carry that burden anymore. I'm feeling sorry.

Speaker 4: 1:07:09

Also one thing that would always honestly, it still bothers me to this day, but like, well, maybe it probably did bother me in the first couple of years or ever. But now I don't know how anyone else feels like this, like we talk about crying or like someone brings it up and they're like, oh, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 3: 1:07:24

I'm like, why are you saying sorry? I think about him all the time, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:07:29

Like I feel like I have more or less found peace with it and like I'm comfortable talking about him and talking about his life. People are like I'm sorry we don't have to talk about it.

Speaker 2: 1:07:36

I think other people are uncomfortable with us. We're not the ones in conflict. Because other people are uncomfortable with topic of death. We've lived through it, so we like to talk about Brian.

Speaker 3: 1:07:44

I think they're afraid though that they're going to hurt your feeling.

Speaker 1: 1:07:47

Bring something up that you forgot Maybe.

Speaker 3: 1:07:50

Because somebody said that to me once that that went because her daughter went to school and I saw her with Brian in junior high, elementary, and she said I never know if I should say anything or not.

Speaker 4: 1:08:00

And I said oh, I always love I always love this time and I think to this day people bring stuff up, because when I was pregnant I went to a labor delivery for during my pregnancy and there was a nurse 10 years later that said I have never told you this because I've never had the opportunity to speak to you, but told my mom that she was there, that night.

Speaker 3: 1:08:16

It's crazy. She was in the ER and the doctor from the ER at St Ian's, the level three trauma center, asked to hit, asked to ride in the ambulance with him when he got transferred to Toledo, because he didn't want him to be alone in the ambulance and he kept trying to resuscitate, which was which was against the policy. And I mean to find out, to keep hearing even years later how hard so everybody worked to try to save him is just a glowing tribute to how great people really are.

Speaker 1: 1:08:54

That I learned People don't seem to care, people go about their business and you think they're, they're arrogant or this energy, other, and you find out that there's a lot of people care, I think, something that we talk about this a lot, but with Brian dying, something that you realize so much is the most inconsequential interactions with other humans have a massive impact on those people, because even people who had very little interaction with Brian, just from one or two interactions, still came and wait three hours in line to tell you guys a story about how he was kind to them.

Speaker 1: 1:09:28

So people being kind to someone, holding the door open for a random person or a small act of kindness. It does make a difference in people's lives, because you know it takes something like that. You're obviously never, most people are never going to get to know, because you don't die and so you don't, or you don't have someone around you die. But that was just such a recurring theme, just the power of small interactions, or seemingly small kind of seemingly inconsequential daily activities, just making someone laugh, or this or that, those are everything.

Speaker 3: 1:10:00

Smiling. Yeah, I had a couple of people tell me every time I saw Brian he'd get a big smile on his face. He would smile at people. And it's true, you reflect back, or you know, what you give out is reflected back. It makes just a random person. If you smile at them, it can make their day.

Speaker 4: 1:10:22

But yeah, I'm back to what you said about people who don't look at you like how are you, I'm fine, are you? We don't say how they feel.

Speaker 2: 1:10:29

Because you don't want to bring people down.

Speaker 4: 1:10:31

Well, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean when I say it.

Speaker 2: 1:10:34

And you wonder like, do people really want to hear what I?

Speaker 4: 1:10:36

mean yeah, do they really want?

Speaker 2: 1:10:37

to hear what I mean.

Speaker 4: 1:10:38

You already feel like a burden, yeah, so I want to go on, especially if you touch on mental health struggles and stuff, because I had my fair share. I'm a very candid person but I try to be that way so that other people know they can talk to me. They can talk to me like I'm not going to judge you, I'm not going to judge and I think that just through everything we've all been through, it's kind of just a way to show if your life could look perfect on paper but to everyone you can't escape the human condition, like you can't. Money, power, status like not can escape from just the basic.

Speaker 3: 1:11:21

You can't escape grief, you can't escape a lot of things that are just and don't you think that it allows if you can be a little more honest about your emotions and your feelings without dragging everybody down? Don't you think that it makes other people feel as if maybe they could share a little bit of a burden instead of always being picture perfect?

Speaker 1: 1:11:44

Well, everybody else is picture perfect except for me. So I don't have you guys experiences, but for sure something I've experienced because people know that my brother's died and what I've been through I've been. They had so many kind of interests that talk about things I've had so many people tell me like they then feel comfortable telling you about their pain.

Speaker 1: 1:12:04

So, like people who have told me they've tried to kill themselves, or people that bring up their different traumatic events or stuff like that, I feel like they're much more likely to share that with you.

Speaker 2: 1:12:15

Well, when you show your vulnerability, other people will show their own yeah. They have to know that you're not going to judge them and be you know. Or be okay to talk about it. Yeah, I think people will be in shock. It will be in shock, that's sometimes very hard.

Speaker 1: 1:12:28

I mean, I think, when all that extra, when people tell them all that stuff, because then they're compiling that in you. So just being strong in that regard too.

Speaker 4: 1:12:40

I think also like and we've all been open about Brian's death and stuff and like. For example, like when I was 16 or something, I posted something on Instagram. I was like on screenshot from my notes app of an excerpt or something I wrote about World Suicide Prevention Day and I kind of just was like and this is Instagram where, like, you're just supposed to post your cute pictures and stuff, yeah, but I posted this thing about, like, how I struggled with depression, anxiety and like suicidal thoughts and things like this, and the amount of people that like DM me that I had never heard from like before. They were just like. I really appreciate this. You know what I mean? Because I mean some people are going to be like oh she's crazy, but other people will appreciate it, and the people that are saying like oh she's crazy are just like yeah they're just too afraid to let anyone let their guard down dead.

Speaker 4: 1:13:31

Yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:13:34

You guys have anything? Sorry I was gonna, let's go ahead. So yeah, I think in my diary touch time is a little bit like one major, like some major things I've like learned in life through grief and experiencing that it's the dog.

Speaker 3: 1:13:52

It's the dog. The dog gets restless and she starts robbing against couch.

Speaker 1: 1:13:58

And we can't, we can't, we can't, we can't concentrate, we can't keep them out either, because they'll they'll barge in. Of course yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:14:06

So I would say a good way to maybe conclude this would be Well, but that's.

Speaker 1: 1:14:10

So I think a major thing my dad touched on us a little bit is a lesson I've learned in life is just the importance of relationships. Once you lose someone so close to you, a lot of you realize how like fickle a lot of other things are of people wanting to like. I need to like do this at school in order to like feel good, or I need this car, I need money, I need a significant other, I need this. You have to be happy with yourself and you have to be happy with like those around you, and that it does mean everything. And another thing is sometimes guys pause just to wake up in the morning and like, like and just and be alive is a true blessing, because every day there's someone who doesn't wake up and there's people who are dying. So it's truly a blessing to be alive and it's, it's cliche, but the small things and the people around you and relationships mean everything. So just just another reminder on that Do you know what the priest?

Speaker 3: 1:15:15

who married me and dad told me at one time when I went out to lunch with him. He told me and I have yet to do this on a consistent basis because I've always cut myself super busy and that I try to not think about it a lot.

Speaker 3: 1:15:30

That's been a coping mechanism in later years. But he said to start up gratitude journal because he told me it's nearly impossible to be angry, sad, grief-stricken etc. When you sit down and you are grateful. And he told me, every day you should think of three things that you're grateful for and when you practice an attitude of gratitude it goes all about that Quite once the word tried it's so true.

Speaker 1: 1:16:00

It's about being consistent because I've done that.

Speaker 3: 1:16:02

Yeah, I'll do that.

Speaker 1: 1:16:03

at times, I feel like lately I've been a lot better with everything, but the more you think like, be grateful in your thoughts and writing things down, it really it's hard to then be angry about everything because, yes, your life could be better and there's always people with stuff better than you, but more so than that, there's always people with much worse than you. I always think about that. Sometimes that would be a comparison I'd be like okay, I just lost my brother. There's people who have lost their entire family, their homes. Yeah, I think about a lot of times. There's people who went to World War II when they were 18, which I never had to do.

Speaker 4: 1:16:43

We're just people like now in countries that are not as free as they are.

Speaker 2: 1:16:51

So I think it's so true Can. I say one more thing Sure.

Speaker 4: 1:16:54

One thing that really helped, which is one more because Kevin wrote about. I just see a thing that really motivated me when I was always super down too, whether it be about Brian or other things it was like and again, everything's relative. But I would always think like, look at everything I've been through. I have to keep going. Every single time. What felt like I would never get through it, I got through it. We never thought we'd get through Brian dying. I think we all wanted to die, and so you just keep having things in your life and you're like this feels unbearable and I will never get over this or I will never feel good again or be happy again, and then eventually, I think that's a really good point.

Speaker 1: 1:17:34

To then to remind yourself oh, take a breath and zoom out and, like I've been through Brian, why am I getting worked up over this?

Speaker 4: 1:17:43

Because people think that life should be like this, when really it's like this.

Speaker 3: 1:17:48

Yeah, very much. You know things that I would be angry about. Somehow I would be shown like one time somebody at a talk said oh you thank God a lot, you thank God a lot. She said it was a kid, you know, a young girl in high school, and that her classmates were trying to shush her because she was angry, she was kind of yelling at me and she said what kind of God you know takes away somebody, a good person or your loved one?

Speaker 3: 1:18:20

and I said you know, I thank God that he took Brian and didn't let him live to be in a nursing home in a coma or paralyzed. The happy-go-lucky kid that I knew that was so athletic and so full of life to have to. It was better to to have him gone than to have to watch him in a bed in a coma or paralyzed from neck down, because that's kind of just like losing.

Speaker 4: 1:18:48

anyways, like you know what I mean. Like I said with Eric we probably had to agree his old life because Eric never got to get married. Eric never, you know what.

Speaker 2: 1:18:56

I mean like Eric was over there. Well then, you become a burden to people through this one.

Speaker 3: 1:19:00

But at the end of the day I also realized that we don't have a choice.

Speaker 1: 1:19:04

Yeah, but you so I mean as far as whether somebody lives, you guys and you can find good in every situation it's. You can't control what happens in the world, you can only it's very stuck, but you can only control your reactions and control what you do.

Speaker 3: 1:19:23

So I felt like I wanted to be positive for Brian. That was my best way. And I'm not always positive, I understand that, but that's the human condition. But that's my best way of honoring Brian is trying to be positive.

Speaker 1: 1:19:39

I'm just trying to be a little better each day. But alright, dad, what?

Speaker 2: 1:19:45

No, I was just saying whatever you wrap this up. I think it'd be good for everybody just to say for people out there who may be going through a tragedy right now or have grief in their life, which a lot of people do you know, what would be your one, one bit of advice for people like that and you just will go around and what would be your advice to someone who's going through a tragedy right now, like what do you think would be the most helpful advice you give that person?

Speaker 1: 1:20:09

So again, as we said about the advice, you never know. I think trying different things out and just seeing what works for you and I think in your life you can you would probably know best of sometimes, like the first, when Brian first died, I remember an older person telling me like just eat whatever you like the most. So at the time I like to pizza rolls the most. So that was the only thing I could stomach was I was eating these pizza rolls for breakfast before his funeral or what made you the happiest where? What was something you like doing with that person, maybe trying to do those things? And lastly, just the support system. So many people your loved ones, friends and other people or professional therapists are willing to talk through things with you and everything else, I think opening up or even just you know journaling, just so you, you have to get your thoughts out there and just kind of let it, let it out so you can move, kind of make sense of it and kind of go forward.

Speaker 2: 1:21:13

I mean, I think my my best advice, what helped me the most, was the with your grief, make some purpose out of it. I mean, don't let it destroy you. Do something positive with it. So try to do something that can benefit others.

Speaker 3: 1:21:26

I think as you grow older and you become wise.

Speaker 2: 1:21:29

Life is less about your material things. That's more about how you can help other people and there's so many things that you can do to make someone likes better and take your grief and your tragedy and turn into something positive for somebody else. And I mean, that's the biggest thing I think I took out of this whole death of my son. There was no reason to let him die about turning that death into something positive for others and I think we've done that. But that'd be my advice.

Speaker 3: 1:21:57

Me, I think the biggest thing that I allowed myself and give yourself the grace to have a bad day, to not always be positive, to cry, to feel like it'll never get better. Have the grace to just let yourself be, because I realized that tomorrow, this is like Scarlet O'Hara said tomorrow's another. Didn't she say something like that tomorrow's another day, or something?

Speaker 3: 1:22:28

we've gone with the wind. But there were days where there was shit and you know what I let him be shit. I didn't try to keep going and forcing myself to be productive or happy I would. That's when I would go up to his room and just lay there and let myself grieve and, you know, not worry about whether I got the laundry done. I tried to be the best I could with giving food and taking care of you guys, but you know there were days where I just let it hang. And having second thing is having a friend or two that you, I mean. I use crying on my friend's shoulder so much I had a couple of them that I really cried on, and Amy Bucky was a rack for me and she was just always there anytime when I want to talk, and that's the kind of friend you need to be when somebody's going through grief is just be there for them. For me.

Speaker 4: 1:23:37

I would say, probably, in my opinion, it won't hurt this bad forever. I mean, yeah, it will hurt and you'll still feel it, or think about it, but like Kevin said at, some point or someone said as I'm waiting for force yourself to move on. So I mean that's my attitude I feel like I adopt in a lot of different scenarios. When I'm hurting, it's just like it won't always hurt this bad, or the pain right now is temporary and like there's still pain there, but it's not like how it was.

Speaker 1: 1:24:23

So yeah, and we'll definitely. We didn't really touch on Brian matters or any of that stuff, but so well, there'll definitely be more episodes. We talk about other things involving Brian because, I mean, obviously that's a huge part of who we are and what we've done in life in the years since. But hopefully you guys got something out of this and we appreciate you watching and listening, we appreciate the feedback you've left and, yeah, every Saturday and episode every Saturday.

Speaker 3: 1:25:03

Let us know if you want any topics covered.

Speaker 2: 1:25:06

I think a topic we definitely want to do is positivity, because I think a lot of what we've done, too, is try to become more positive people, so I think that'd be a good episode how to become more positive, yep.

Speaker 1: 1:25:18

Yeah, and my sister's coming home. Julie's coming home in a couple weeks, so we'll shoot a couple episodes with her.

Speaker 3: 1:25:24

Definitely she has a lot of great thoughts and ideas and she's also had made a post that she didn't want to be that girl. She didn't want to be that girl who was, who was known. She didn't want to be known as that girl whose brother died. Yeah, I think, and you said once that it was great when you went away to college, because nobody there knew your history.

Speaker 1: 1:25:48

Oh, yeah, definitely Of the school community. Yeah, when we were at home all the time people would random and they're like, oh, wait.

Speaker 4: 1:25:54

Catherine you know your brother died. Yeah, I see your parents were to my school.

Speaker 1: 1:25:59

You don't want that to be your dad. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:26:00

I hear right now, but alright thanks everyone. Thanks.

Speaker 1: 1:26:05

Bye.